Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil's Advocate. In a recent article in DNA Subramanian Swamy has said that Indian Muslims must either proudly accept and acknowledge their Hindu ancestors and legacy or be disenfranchised. To many that feels like hateful, communal prejudice. But how does Doctor Swamy defend himself. That is the key issue I should put today to Subramanian Swamy himself.
Doctor Swamy you are a Harvard professor, a former Law Minister. You are at the forefront of the campaign to bring the 2G accused to justice. How do you account for this hateful communal prejudice against Muslims?
Subramanian Swamy: No, it is not hateful at all. It is first of all factually correct that Muslims of India have DNA wise the same DNA as us. And therefore there is nothing wrong with them acknowledging that their ancestors are Hindus. If they say Hindus are not their ancestors, then who could be their ancestors? Now after all we created Pakistan for those Muslims who didn't consider themselves as ready to live with their Hindu brothers.
Karan Thapar: I will come to the core of your argument in a moments of time but first let me put this to you. Do you dislike Muslims?
Subramanian Swamy: How could I? I have got a son-in-law who is a Muslim.
Karan Thapar: He hasn't complained?
Subramanian Swamy: Yeah, he hasn't complained.
Karan Thapar: Your son-in-law has no objection to your views?
Subramanian Swamy: I can't say whether he has objections or not but he hasn't complained to me. And these are not my new views, these view are from the very beginning.
Karan Thapar: So you are saying to me, you don't dislike Muslims?
Subramanian Swamy: Why should I dislike them, they are Indians if they acknowledge their ancestors are Hindus.
Karan Thapar: Do you distrust Muslims?
Subramanian Swamy: Why should I? If they say that their ancestors are Hindus they are as much Indians as I am. Only if they say their ancestors are not Hindus, they are not as good Indians as I am.
Karan Thapar: There is a precondition there?
Subramanian Swamy: Of course there is a precondition. After all Pakistan was created on that precondition. You must understand why Pakistan was created.
Karan Thapar: Does that precondition mean that you are actually anti-Muslim?
Subramanian Swamy: No, how can that be. In fact I tell you, I found that - Muslims themselves have told me - we find nothing wrong. These people are creating problem because of the 2G scam.
Karan Thapar: Let's then come to the central prescription in your article published in DNA in July, you write and I want to quote, "If any Muslim acknowledges his or her Hindu legacy, then we Hindus can accept him or her, others who refuse to acknowledge this can remain in India but should not have voting rights." What is your justification for that?
Subramanian Swamy: Because then the whole genesis arises out of partition. Partition was created for two kinds of Muslims, those who can live with Hindus on the basis of a commonality and those who said that can't have anything to do with Hindus.
Karan Thapar: Why is acknowledging your Hindu ancestors or your Hindu legacy proof that you can live with Hindus. Why do you have to make it the main issue?
Subramanian Swamy: Because that is the truth and why should they deny the truth.
Karan Thapar: Well hang on a second. It is not the truth because you don't make that condition for Christens, Jains, Sikhs. It is not in that article.
Subramanian Swamy: No, I do. This was written in context with Mumbai terrorist act. But if you go by my book, "Hindutva and National Renaissance" I have said it for Christians too.
Karan Thapar: But in the article which is headlined, "How to wipe out Islamic terror" the word Christian, Buddhist, Jain, Sikh doesn't feature even once.
Subramanian Swamy: Yeah, because they have nothing to do with that terror.
Karan Thapar: So you have singled out Muslims.
Subramanian Swamy: Because it was on the context of Bombay.
Karan Thapar: In fact you have gone a step further, I'm going to quote from that DNA article, "declare India a Hindu Rashtra".
Subramanian Swamy: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Rename India Hindustan as a nation of Hindus and those whose ancestors were Hindus, and then you say you want some 300 mosques removed, clearly.
Subramanian Swamy: You are not quoting me correctly.
Karan Thapar: I'm quoting you correctly.
Subramanian Swamy:It was conditional on the goals of terrorist.
Karan Thapar: But hang on a moment. You believe that those goals are facts therefore these conditions follow as light follows day.
Subramanian Swamy:No, if they execute terrorist acts, then these should follow as retaliation.
Karan Thapar: Even the attempt to declare India a Hindu Rashtra and call it a nation of Hindus. A nation of Hindus suggest that your concept of India does not have room for Muslims.
Subramanian Swamy: No! Hindus does not necessarily mean the Hindu religious theology.
Karan Thapar: What does Hindus mean.
Subramanian Swamy: Hindus mean it is a value system.
Karan Thapar: Hang on a second. Why did you not specify that in your article?
Subramanian Swamy: When you write an article you don't specify everything.
Karan Thapar: This is such a critical point.
Subramanian Swamy: This is not a critical point from my point of view. It is very well understood. Vivekananda said this. And let me tell you that these views that I have expressed is in different forms in Ambedkar's writings.
Karan Thapar: No matter in whose writings they may be in, you are presenting them today as your views and you are not differentiating Hinduism as a way of life and Hinduism as a religion.
Subramanian Swamy: No, I don't talk about Hinduism as way of life, I talk about Hinduism as a value system. Way of life is too vague.
Karan Thapar: Why should Muslims have to subscribe to a value system for Hindus.
Subramanian Swamy: Because we Hindus believe all religions lead to god. Muslims should also believe that.
Karan Thapar: But Muslims have a right to believe that their religion is their way of going to god. They don't have to subscribe to Hindu values.
Subramanian Swamy: No, Muslim religion is not only that. Muslin religion also defines what is darul islam, darul harab.
Karan Thapar: Let me put to you this first of all, you wrote that article on behalf of Hindus.
Subramanian Swamy: Yes.
Karan Thapar: What gives you the feeling that the majority of Hindus agree with you.
Subramanian Swamy: Go and talk to them.
Karan Thapar: What do you mean go and talk to them?
Subramanian Swamy: I would say judging to all the reaction to my article, the Hindus are overwhelmingly in support.
Karan Thapar: Are you saying that Hindus are communal like you are?
Subramanian Swamy: Well it depends how you define communal. If you think that what I have written is communal then I will say that 99 per cent are communal.
Karan Thapar: 99 per cent Hindus are communal?
Subramanian Swamy: If your definition of Hindu or Communalism is what you have defined it.
Karan Thapar: Let's come to the reasons such as why you have this particular view and attitude to Muslims. You say and I'm quoting once again, “Muslims of India are being programmed by a slow reacted process to become radical and thus slide into suicide against Hindus. What proof do you have of this?
Subramanian Swamy: Who has done the Bombay attack?
Karan Thapar: What about Swami Asimanand, what about Col. Purohit what about Pragya Singh Thakur?
Subramanian Swamy: Don't change the subject. Today there is sufficient evidence that home grown Muslim individuals have become terrorists.
Karan Thapar: But there is also sufficient evidence of home grown Hindus become terrorists.
Subramanian Swamy: Don't change the subject, first let's finish this point. And then I'm coming…I'm ready to take this point, but first let's take the first point. That for the fist time I find that there is sufficient evidence with our intelligence system that Muslims are being programmed into becoming terrorists.
Karan Thapar: For the sake of argument only. I will accept you are right. In fact why then associate the whole Muslim community because a small fringe lunatic element doing it.
Subramanian Swamy:I'm not. Read that statement. I'm saying they are being programmed to slowly. That doesn't mean that has already happened.
Karan Thapar: But you are saying Muslims of India, not a few Muslims.
Subramanian Swamy: They are all being targeted.
Karan Thapar: So there you are. You are associating the whole community for a small minority.
Subramanian Swamy: I'm not associating the whole community; I am saying they are being targeted as a whole community.
Karan Thapar: You are even going one step further.
Subramanian Swamy: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Not only you are associating the whole community with what a small minority are doing but on the bases of that minority you are demanding that the whole community should either be disenfranchised if they do not accept Hindu ancestry.
Subramanian Swamy: That is your inference. That is not what is written there.
Karan Thapar: It's anyone's inference. It is a logical inference.
Subramanian Swamy: I can produce 200 people for every person you produce, I will produce 200 people who say that is not the case.
Karan Thapar: Doctor Swamy it is hard to read your article and come to any other conclusion. You are blaming the majority for a lunatic fringe.
Subramanian Swamy: Listen you are an opinionated person, so you can come to any opinion. I have written this with full understanding of what I'm writing. I'm telling you that Muslim as a community is being targeted by terrorist, by propaganda to slowly slide into suicide against Hindus. Now earlier on it didn't work, now it has begun to work, so we have to do something about it.
Karan Thapar: You know I will leave that uncontested only because I have argued with it for so long people know what I have to say. But I will just point out there will be millions who will disagree. You also say in your article Islam will confront Hinduism to complete unfinished business.
Subramanian Swamy: That's right.
Karan Thapar: Once again that may be an opinion of a small fringe fanatic lunatic minority like all religions have such minorities, but clearly it is not the view of majority of Muslims and it is not a position endorsed by Islam.
Subramanian Swamy: It is the view of terrorist; it is the views of terrorist organisations.
Karan Thapar: But you say Islam will confront Hinduism.
Subramanian Swamy: Yeah, of course it is Islam theology, which says that if you are darul islam you have to behave in a certain way. For instance they won't let you built temple in Saudi Arabia.
Karan Thapar: So Islam is your target not terrorist?
Subramanian Swamy: There is no question of Islam being target. The Islamic thought whether if you go by Quran and Hidat, it for the faithful to finish off the kafir.
Karan Thapar: In other words your target is Islam.
Subramanian Swamy: What do you mean your target is Islam? I'm educating you about Islam. I am just telling you what Islam is. I don't need a target, I have enough people in this country. I don't need Islam as target.
Karan Thapar: Do you know what you are really doing? You are sowing seeds of distrust between Hindus and Muslims.
Subramanian Swamy: No. That is your psychoanalysis.
Karan Thapar: You are dividing India and you are provoking Hindus and the worst thing is that you are doing this knowingly and deliberately.
Subramanian Swamy: I have not done any such thing because this is your inference. Now you are entitled to your inference. I only said what people like Ambedkar have said long before me. I am saying it in different way but it is all there. We have seen it there and we have to recognise it.
Karan Thapar: You know in your DNA article you claimed that you are devising a strategy to eradicate terrorism. But paradox is that the seeds of distrust that you are sowing is actually going to create the bases of fresh terror.
Subramanian Swamy: That is a accusation which has no foundation.
Karan Thapar: It's an inference, it is a conclusion, it flows from what you are doing.
Subramanian Swamy: These accusations have been thrown at me but nothing came out of it ultimately. People have whipped themselves into synthetic anger, but what came out of it?
Karan Thapar: Let me put this to you. Is this a tactic to ingratiate yourself with the RSS, to secure their political score.
Subramanian Swamy: No. I'm past that. I have already won over the RSS heart long time ago.
Karan Thapar: Let's come back to the point you made at the beginning of this interview. You said that you had a Muslim son-in-law. Your wife in fact is Parsi. How do they respond to the conditions to the conditions you attach for minorities, you say clearly that if minorities do not accept with pride their Hindu ancestors and their Hindu legacy they should disenfranchised. How does your Parsi wife and Muslim son-in-law accept it?
Subramanian Swamy: Well first of all Parsi's have no difficulty. In fact when they land in India they sign a contract.
Karan Thapar: But they don't have Hindu ancestors, they don't have Hindu legacy.
Subramanian Swamy: How do you know?
Karan Thapar: Don't they came from Iran, they came from Persia.
Subramanian Swamy: They came. Ninety men and 60 women came. You don't know Parsi history. So don't make wild guesses.
Karan Thapar: So Parsis also have Hindu ancestors?
Subramanian Swamy: Of course they do.
Karan Thapar: Is your wife prepared to accept that?
Subramanian Swamy: Well you ask her?
Karan Thapar: No, I'm asking you.
Subramanian Swamy: I'm sorry, I'm not going to tag my wife into this.
Karan Thapar: Is your son-in-law prepared to accept that?
Subramanian Swamy: Conversation between husband and wife is privileged, do you know that?
Karan Thapar: Is your son-in-law prepared to accept that?
Subramanian Swamy: Why should I tell you that, you ask him.
Karan Thapar: Aren't you in danger of dividing your family?
Subramanian Swamy: Well ask the family. I have had not this problem; this is not my new views. They may have been written first time in a newspaper in this form but I have written books about it. I have been saying this from the day I joined Janata party.
Karan Thapar: Are you proud of these views?
Subramanian Swamy: Of course, otherwise… there is no question of proud, these are my views. I think the people of India are proud of it.
Karan Thapar: Is your family embarrassed by them?
Subramanian Swamy: They have not told me so.
Karan Thapar: Are they just being polite?
Subramanian Swamy: Why don't you talk with my family and find out. You interact with some of them. They happen to be in your channel. Why don't you ask them?
Karan Thapar: Doctor Swamy let's come to the letter that you wrote to the Prime Minster on the April 15 seeking his permission to prosecute Sonia Gandhi under the Prevention of Corruption Act. What response have you had from the Prime Minister?
Subramanian Swamy: Well he has just now sent me a letter saying that its premature and therefore he didn't find sufficient bases to give me permission.
Karan Thapar: When you say that he sent you just know, how soon is just know?
Subramanian Swamy: Well I was in America. So it must have come in the last week of July I think.
Karan Thapar: And you saw it only on your return couple of days ago.
Subramanian Swamy: That's right.
Karan Thapar: What does the letter say?
Subramanian Swamy: It just says that it is a premature thing and I don't find any bases therefore to proceed ahead.
Karan Thapar: In other words he has refused to give permission?
Subramanian Swamy: Well that is the reading of it. It doesn't matter because I never thought that he will ever give me permission. I just wanted to go though the process. Now I will go to the Supreme Court
Karan Thapar: Now the process requires you to give the Prime Minster three months to reply.
Subramanian Swamy: Yeah it's more than three months now.
Karan Thapar: And now that he has refused at the end of that three month period. What do you intend to do?
Subramanian Swamy: I intend to go to the Supreme Court on that.
Karan Thapar: You will go to the Supreme Court?
Subramanian Swamy: Yeah I did it for Raja, the same procedure.
Karan Thapar: So you will file a case in the Supreme Court seeking permission to prosecute Sonia Gandhi under the Prevention of Corruption Act. How confident are you that the Supreme Court will admit it, given the fact that the Prime Minister has refused to give you the permission?
Subramanian Swamy: I can never prejudge the Supreme Court. They are wise judges and I'm quite impressed with them, but I think the prima facie case is very strong.
Karan Thapar: Well you say that the prima facie case is very strong and for those who haven't had the benefit of reading the letter of April 15, let me summaries briefly, you allege and I'm underlining the work allege that Sonia Gandhi has benefited from Bofors, that she has benefited from Iraq food for oil deals. You calm that she has been the recipient of the payoffs from the Russian KGB. You again allege that she has bank accounts abroad and finally you have been calming for several years that she is also involved in the illegal export of the antiquities. But what evidence do you have for any of this?
Subramanian Swamy: Well do you want me to speak on all of them or anyone of them?
Karan Thapar: Tell me first of all about the clam that she has received payoffs from the KGB.
Subramanian Swamy: Well you know, there is no KGB now, there is something called FSI, so when these documents... You see what happened, the Americans took out all these documents from everybody, they literally stole the KGB library. And then photostated and put it in various university liberties. Now those documents I have produced in the Delhi High Court in a writ petition. The Delhi High Court had issued a notice to the CBI at that time the spokesman of the successor organisation of the KGB said yes we had given money because the whole family was friendly to us.
Karan Thapar: So in other words these are documents from the KGB authenticated by the Americans.
Subramanian Swamy: Not authenticated.
Karan Thapar: But put on websites by the Americans?
Subramanian Swamy: Yes. In the libraries it is available
Karan Thapar: And therefore these documents are available in libraries.
Subramanian Swamy: And they are available in Delhi High Court.
Karan Thapar: Number two you have also said that she has bank accounts out side the country. What proof do you have of that?
Subramanian Swamy: Well the proof I have given there is highly respected.
Karan Thapar: But that goes back to 1991.
Subramanian Swamy: Yeah, so she had it then.
Karan Thapar: But how do you know that you can rely on them?
Subramanian Swamy: On them, this magazine has produced it as a consequence of the American pressure on Swaziland to expose.
Karan Thapar: But the magazine could be wrong. The magazine could be forced.
Subramanian Swamy: Because they have not only forced the Rajiv Gandhi family.
Karan Thapar: But you are going on a very slender evidence. Stolen KGB documents not authenticated, magazines that are not conformed and collaborated.
Subramanian Swamy: You are not paying attention that is the problem with you. I have said that the spokesmen of the successor to the KGB went on record to say that yes we had given money to the family because they were friendly to us.
Karan Thapar: And the spokesperson to the successor of the KGB will stand by that today, have you got any conformation, collaboration?
Subramanian Swamy: Why should I? This is for the government to investigate. After all the High Court has issued a notice to the CBI to go and find out.
Karan Thapar: You also claim that she is also involved in export of antiquities. In fact you have been saying that if I recall correctly for decades. What proof do you have of this illegal export?
Subramanian Swamy: Well I have given evidence of that, I can tell you that she and Naveen Chawla's wife, they were actively involved in it.
Karan Thapar: You just named someone else.
Subramanian Swamy: Yes I did.
Karan Thapar: Are you sure that is not liable?
Subramanian Swamy: Please prosecute me, I will be happy. I enjoy going to the court to defend these things.
Karan Thapar: You may enjoy going to court but is it right and fair that on the slanders of evidence you are taking people to court, naming them.
Subramanian Swamy: You are sitting in judgment of it, you are not equipped to judge what is slander evidence and what is sufficient evidence.
Karan Thapar: But can you be the judge of your own evidence.
Subramanian Swamy: Whenever I have gone to court, I have managed to convince the court that I have prima facie case evidence, other wise I don't go to the court.
Karan Thapar: Can you be the best judge of your own evidence?
Subramanian Swamy: I'm no the judge, I have to have an evidence before I go to court and the court is the final authority.
Karan Thapar: When will you go to the court?
Subramanian Swamy: I will go to court as soon as I find time. I have got 2G on my hands you see. I am not the head of the CBI.
Karan Thapar: So this will happen only after the 2G is over.
Subramanian Swamy: I can't say when I will go to the court. I'm not going to give you the time table.
Karan Thapar: You just hinted that it is not imminent
Subramanian Swamy: I didn't say anything al all. That is your surmise.
Karan Thapar: Will your decision of going to the court be at all affected by the fact that Sonia Gandhi is abroad, she is going through surgery, she could be seriously ill?
Subramanian Swamy: Certainly it will not be as enjoyable if she is in not in hospital.
Karan Thapar: It will not be as enjoyable. So you look upon it as enjoyment.
Subramanian Swamy: No I certainly mean if it is a… when you are persecuting somebody who is corrupt and they are lying in the hospital it is not something you would like to do.
Karan Thapar: Is that a let out clause?
Subramanian Swamy: There is nothing let out here, this is humanity, we are humans.
Karan Thapar: Well at a point when you sound human after part you sounded distinctly less than human and you are smiling. A pleasure talking with you.
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