New Delhi: Karnataka Lokayukta Santosh Hegde spoke to Rajdeep Sardesai and said he has nothing personal against Karnataka Chief Minister BS Yedyurappa. He has also named Jindal Steel as one of the bribe givers.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Joining us now is the man of the moment. They are calling him the giant killer of Karnataka - former Supreme Court judge and now Karnataka’s Lokayukta, Justice Santosh Hegde. Appreciate you for joining us. The big question sir, do you feel like a giant killer today? Do you feel you are vindicated now that it appears certain that Mr Yeddyurappa is resigning? Santosh Hegde: No, no. I have no such feeling at all. Whatever is stated in my report is something which is reported by the documents. I am not bothered about the political consequences of my report. Therefore, I have no feelings about anybody come here, stand here or anybody continuing.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Do you feel vindicated sir? Do you feel in a sense vindicated that the BJP has been forced to remove Mr Yeddyurappa.
Santosh Hegde: No, no, no. I have no such feeling. I have nothing personally against Mr Yeddyurappa. I have only done my job which was entrusted to me.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Though the Chief Minister said that there is nothing new in your report, it is a repeat of old charges that have been made; many of which are being fought in the courts. How do you respond to that when he says the Lokayukta report doesn’t have any new charges against me?
Santosh Hegde: We have given evidence to show that huge money has been paid as donation to one trust manager by his family. Though the company did not have any money, they borrowed the money from some other source and donated it. It is not a natural conduct of a donor. Obviously the donation was for collateral purposes. Similarly, very same company which did not even have the capital to run the company, which has been on an over draft paid Rs 20 crore for a land which according to the guidance value is worth only Rs 1 crore. These were all common sense inferences.
Rajdeep Sardesai: You know in one of those cases, for example that you cited, where Yeddyurappa’s son sells a plot of a land to one of these companies for Rs 20 crore, which is way in excess of market price paid by a cheque. Now Yeddyurappa says how does it amount to bribery when the amount was paid by cheque. Your response?
Santosh Hegde: I have not come across any decision of the Supreme Court or any law for that matter which says that the bribe can’t be paid by cheque. They are being very clever by paying, giving in cheque for the collateral purpose not directly to the Chief Minister but his family. So one has to draw an inference – was the consideration a genuine consideration or was it consideration for another collateral purpose. More so, in the background of the fact that certain applications or recommendations were to be made to the Central Government by the State Government and these donations were being made.
Rajdeep Sardesai: But the donors sir, the donors themselves what about their role. The fact that some very powerful corporates – Jindal Steel and other mining companies – are also reportedly were the ones that reportedly benefited Yeddyurappa’s sons. Do you think action will be taken against them or only against the politicians or the officials that you have named in your report?
Santosh Hegde: No, no. Action should be taken against them also because the bribe givers are also offenders and then the Prevent of Corruption Act of 1988 wherefore their account should be looked into. The money has come in a circuitous way – it has come from Jindal Steel; certain amount of money.
Rajdeep Sardesai: So you are asking for the accounts of the mining companies of these top corporates to be inquired into, to be investigated into. That it cannot just be left to the politicians and the bureaucrats. That they are the bribe takers but bribe givers must also be prosecuted.
Santosh Hegde: Correct, you are right.
Rajdeep Sardesai: The other question that is being asked is your decision to send this report to the Governor under Section 14 of the Karnataka Lokayukta Act you could have initiated a sou motu investigation in your cell. Why then hand it over to a competitive authority particularly since the Governor I seen to have an animus against the Chief Minister.
Santosh Hegde: Look any action against the Chief Minister, if we want to send a report, has to be sent to a competitive authority and suppose the Chief Minister is concerned under Section 2 sub section 4 of the Karnataka Lokayukta Act, it is the Governor. I have sent a report which is not only against the Chief Minister but against other ministers and other officials. Therefore the report has gone to the Governor to take action against the ministers and other officials. When it comes to the Chief Minister, we have to intimate the Governor under Section 24 of the Karnataka Lokayukta Act.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir you did not think of initiating prosecution on your own and couldn’t you have initiated the sou motu prosecution under yourself given the irregularities and the charges that you have made in your report.
Santosh Hegde: Well that too is a possibility and I thought it was better given under 23.
Rajdeep Sardesai: The reason why I am asking you this is because you were asking, I will quote, you had little faith that the government will act on your report. That you believe only the Supreme Court would act on your report. Are you still holding that view? Do you think the government will act to your report or do you think only Supreme Court is in a position to act on it?
Santosh Hegde: That is my experience and I do believe that the State government will not act on it and since the Supreme Court is monitoring the illegal mining in the State of Karnataka, I think they will take suitable action.
Rajdeep Sardesai: In that sense Justice Hegde, are you saying to us that the resignation of one Chief Minister is not the solution. Given the scale and the dimension of the mining scam in Karnataka, Rs 16000 crore plus, do you believe that this can only be settled if the Supreme Court comes in and brings in a regulator. It can’t be done by simply forcing the resignation of one or two ministers or the chief minister.
Santosh Hegde: As far as mining is concerned you are absolutely right. It has to be done by a regulator and as my colleagues told me that if only we have couple of more months’ time then we would have certainly dug more dirt.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Are you saying this is the tip of the iceberg?
Santosh Hegde: Not the tip, but there is still more left.
Rajdeep Sardesai: So you are saying that the dimension of this scam could be well beyond Rs 16,000 crore?
Santosh Hegde: No doubt about it.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir how have you arrived at this figure if I may ask.
Santosh Hegde: This is based on the documents that we have got. On that we have calculated the loss, quantity that has been taken illegally from the Bellary district, various destinations of where it is exported and based on the market value we have calculated this loss.
Rajdeep Sardesai: But sir there is this feeling that this, as you rightly said, this is much wider in dimensions. Many of these illegal mining companies are operating out of Andhra Pradesh. Do you believe that the actual amount that is being lost to this country’s exchequer could be even double the amount that you have said in this report?
Santosh Hegde: It could be. That is the advice I have been given from my team.
Rajdeep Sardesai: That it could be double the amount. The scale could be Rs 32,000 crore.
Santosh Hegde: Could be.
Rajdeep Sardesai: So what’s the solution then sir? Is the solution simply the Karnataka Lokayukta report or what would you recommend?
Santosh Hegde: No there should be an independent commission or investigation agency that must do this work. And I am sure my team is ready to cooperate with them and if they want my help also, I am ready to give it to them because the amount that is being lost to the state’s exchequer is huge.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Justice Santosh Hegde there is also the question that you have asked for the prosecution of the Chief Minister. But what about the others – Reddy brothers, Kumaraswamy – should they also be prosecuted? How do you get back the money?
Santosh Hegde: I have said as far as the Kumaraswamy is concerned, I found no loss to the state, but if there is evidence that loss has been caused then there should be an investigated and all should be prosecuted. The action should be taken under the Forest Act, the Mining Act and the Indian Penal Code and also the Prevention of Corruption Act.
Rajdeep Sardesai: But are you saying that those who argue that you singled out Yeddyurappa for prosecution are wrong? When you talk about prosecution, you are talking about prosecution and recovery of money from all those named in your report.
Santosh Hegde: Yes. Yes you are absolutely right.
Rajdeep Sardesai: But sir there will of course be a question – the Karnataka Lokayukta - is he powered and that do you have the capacity to investigate the dimension of this scam. Do you believe given the dimensions of this scam, you need a larger investigative body into this?
Santosh Hegde: You are right, I don’t have the capacity, I mean, the Karnataka Lokayukta does not have necessary infrastructure and capacity to go whole hog and enquire.
Rajdeep Sardesai: And do you believe this cuts across the party lines of this has been primarily been done in the last few years by Mr Yeddyurappa as Chief Minister?
Santosh Hegde: No it has been going on since 2000, when the China boom started and this particular government, Chief Minister is not the only person.
Rajdeep Sardesai: And you are very clear that you have no axe to grind against Yeddyurappa – the individual. That this is not a personal battle between Justice Santosh Hegde and Mr Yeddyurappa.
Santosh Hegde: Yeah 100 per cent right. Yeah I have nothing personal against the person individually. I have hardly met him twice or thrice – that too on formal occasions.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir do you believe the Chief Minister’s supporters who are saying that you haven’t found any evidence against Mr Yeddyurappa – the individual. All your evidences against his family members or trust run by his family is no direct evidence implicating Mr Yeddyurappa. How do you respond to that?
Santosh Hegde: Under the Prevention of Corruption Act, the question is what purpose is the given money. It doesn’t matter to whom it is given. I mean, it could be given to anybody.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir you then believe that the Chief Minister is guilty of bribery. He cannot pass the buck onto the second or third person?
Santosh Hegde: Well I wouldn’t give that verdict now. But we have enough material to prosecute that’s my finding.
Rajdeep Sardesai: And would you like Governor Mr Bhardwaj to act right away. Do you believe that it is imperative that he has the three month period to study your Lokayukta report. You believe it should take that long or do you believe he should act right away?
Santosh Hegde: That is left to the Governor. If he thinks it should be done or if he has to study the report as there has been pointed out there are some doubts here and there, if he wants to examine that he can take his own time.
Rajdeep Sardesai: What you’re saying is that this is a widespread scam. You have spent the last few years studying this relentlessly, were there any moments for you and your team, when you were threatened? I know you almost withdrew as Karnataka Lokayukta a couple of years ago. Were there any moments when your team felt threatened or intimidated by the Karnataka government?
Santosh Hegde: No, no. Not from the government, but my colleague in investigation said he was assaulted not by the mining lobby but every time he went to Bellary. I think there was a sense of prevention that there will be an attack.
Rajdeep Sardesai: The reason why I am asking you this is because there are those who believe that Justice Santosh Hegde at one time was close to BJP. You yourself have called Advani a father figure. Did the BJP at any time try to persuade you to call off your enquiry/ investigation? Put any kind of pressure on you?
Santosh Hegde: At no point of time I was close to BJP, but of course my father was in BJP. That does not mean his son should automatically follow that. And so far as Mr Advani is concerned, I respect him as a person not as a political leader. I have absolutely no political link with Mr Advani. I must tell you, I was appointed the Advocate General but Mr Ramkrishna Hegde was no relative of mine, Janata Party was in power in Karnataka. I was appointed as the Additional Solicitor General of India, by the NDA government. I was appointed as the Lokayukta here when JDS-BJP government was in power. So there is no question of me favouring any political party. I have not favoured any political party.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir a few days back you raised a very serious allegation of phone tapping. The Chief Minister has denied it and the Karnataka government has denied it. Are you sticking by that allegation? Do you believe there should be a full enquiry into allegations of that the phones of you and your colleagues were being tapped?
Santosh Hegde: With all responsibility I made that statement, but now it is irrelevant because it was being used to divert the attention of the people from the major issue. Now my report is over. I am prepared to cooperate for any enquiry in that regard.
Rajdeep Sardesai: You stand by that your phone was being tapped?
Santosh Hegde: Yes, yes.
Rajdeep Sardesai: It is a very serious allegation, do you think there should be an enquiry?
Santosh Hegde: Yes, yes. Certainly.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Justice Hegde, you are completing your term as Karnataka Lokayukta in a few days, do you have any regrets at what you achieved, would you have wanted to achieve more?
Santosh Hegde: Certainly I could have achieved more if there was more cooperation.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Do you think it reveals the limitations of Karnataka Lokayukta or any Lokayukta? That actually a Lokayukta should have more powers?
Santosh Hegde: I am not comparing my powers as a Lokayukta with any other Lokayukta. But the Karnataka Lokayukta Act is much more powerful than many other Lokayukta acts. But over the years and with passage of time, it requires some more powers.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Sir you have become an inspirational anti-corruption crusader now. You are part of the Lokpal Drafting Committee, you have been part of Anna Hazare’s brigade in a sense but is that how you see yourself today? As an anti-corruption crusader?
Santosh Hegde: No, no. I was just doing my job. Certainly I am against corruption. I have already said that after my retirement, I will not join any political party or any organistion. But any particular issue with regard to corruption or maladministration comes, I am prepared to be with them.
Rajdeep Sardesai: What’s your message today to the political class? Many of whom who are watching you closely? What is your message to all of them? You are seen as the person who has claimed the scalp of a Chief Minister. What’s your message to the political class?
Santosh Hegde: I have only one message, at the end of the road maybe you can find yourself in difficulty.
Rajdeep Sardesai: But what you are therefore trying to say is that you have tried to do is establish a principle of political accountability? That if people are seen to loot the national exchequer, they cannot get away. Am I to understand, that is what drove you through the last few years.
Santosh Hegde: Yes, yes you are right.
Rajdeep Sardesai: And you are saying it is still a long way to go before the mining mafia is controlled and you are hoping that your successor and possibly other investigative bodies will carry forward this investigation, it doesn’t end with Mr Yeddyurappa. Am I right?
Santosh Hegde: Yes right.
Rajdeep Sardesai: It does not end with Mr Yeddyurappa, it should include Reddy brothers, people from across parties and other States.
Santosh Hegde: Yes, yes. You are right.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Let me end on a lighter note. I have read in the newspapers that Abhay Deol, the actor has said that he is very inspired by your presence once to play the role of Santosh Hegde in a film in the future. Do you see yourself sir, I comeback to the inspirational figure? That finally here is someone who is a retired Judge, independent, who has taken-on on the establishment. Are you an anti-establishment hero today?
Santosh Hegde: Rajdeep I am not anti-establishment, I am anti-corruption and maladministration naturally which comes from the establishment. Per se I am not against anybody.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Justice Santosh Hegde, you truly have in the last few days have certainly brought a very important aspect of corruption into the national limelight. A Chief Minister has fallen and you have proved that you have been independent right through.
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